Well, well, well. Despite all it's community based fully charm,
giffgaff is just another con.

A few days ago I noticed my giffgaff balance had unexpectedly dropped
by GBP5, so I sent an email requesting a refund.

Surprise, surprise it transpires that giffgaff have charged me for an
unrequested premium rate text message that was sent from a third
party. I had hoped the premium rate text message business had put its
house in order, but it appears not. And, sadly, it also appears that
mobile networks and their resellers are happy to cuddle up in bed with
premium rate text message thieves.

----- Begin Quote -----

Hi Martin,

After a full investigation into your credit loss the giffgaff Tech
Team have now concluded the following:

15/03/2010 10:54 AM - The giffgaff Tech Team
Hi Simon
This look like the customer is subscribed to a text service that
charges him £5 a text on return for a service.
The short code is 82023 which the customer should text the word STOP
if he so wishes.
This is a legitimate charge so it wouldn't warrant a credit as it has
happened on 2 separate occasions.
Thanks
Wayne

I trust this clears this particular issue up over your lost credit and
should you require any further assistance in any other query then
please don't hesitate to contact us here at the giffgaff towers.

Cheers,

Simon @ The giffgaff team
Response (Simon@giffgaff)

----- End Quote -----
--
Martin Jay
Back the Ban: http://www.backtheban.com/
League Against Cruel Sports: http://www.league.org.uk/

"Martin Jay" wrote in message
...
Well, well, well. Despite all it's community based fully charm,
giffgaff is just another con.

A few days ago I noticed my giffgaff balance had unexpectedly dropped
by GBP5, so I sent an email requesting a refund.

Surprise, surprise it transpires that giffgaff have charged me for an
unrequested premium rate text message that was sent from a third
party. I had hoped the premium rate text message business had put its
house in order, but it appears not. And, sadly, it also appears that
mobile networks and their resellers are happy to cuddle up in bed with
premium rate text message thieves.

----- Begin Quote -----

Hi Martin,

After a full investigation into your credit loss the giffgaff Tech
Team have now concluded the following:

15/03/2010 10:54 AM - The giffgaff Tech Team
Hi Simon
This look like the customer is subscribed to a text service that
charges him £5 a text on return for a service.
The short code is 82023 which the customer should text the word STOP
if he so wishes.
This is a legitimate charge so it wouldn't warrant a credit as it has
happened on 2 separate occasions.
Thanks
Wayne

I trust this clears this particular issue up over your lost credit and
should you require any further assistance in any other query then
please don't hesitate to contact us here at the giffgaff towers.
Cheers,
Simon @ The giffgaff team


Demand they offer reverse SMS opt out like T Mobile and Vodafone
as anything else is aiding and abetting theft.

Your posting deserves to be on the giffgaff forum, posting it here
won't embarrass giffgaff

Steve Terry
--
Get a free Three 3pay Sim with £2 bonus after £10 top up
http://freeagent.three.co.uk/stand/view/id/5276

On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:26:58 -0000, "Steve Terry"
wrote:

Demand they offer reverse SMS opt out like T Mobile and Vodafone
as anything else is aiding and abetting theft.

And there should be an explicit and traceable opt in process for
reverse charge premium rate text message services.

The industry obviously can't regulate itself and the mobiles networks
turn a blind eye to what's going on, presumably because it's a nice
little earner for them.

Your posting deserves to be on the giffgaff forum, posting it here
won't embarrass giffgaff

Already done that.
--
Martin Jay
Back the Ban: http://www.backtheban.com/
League Against Cruel Sports: http://www.league.org.uk/

"Martin Jay" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:26:58 -0000, "Steve Terry"
wrote:

Demand they offer reverse SMS opt out like T Mobile and Vodafone
as anything else is aiding and abetting theft.

And there should be an explicit and traceable opt in process for
reverse charge premium rate text message services.


That would end reverse SMS as hardly anyone would opt in.
I like the idea

Realistically opt out is best we can hope for

Steve Terry
--
Get a free Three 3pay Sim with £2 bonus after £10 top up
http://freeagent.three.co.uk/stand/view/id/5276

Steve Terry wrote:
"Martin Jay" wrote in message
...
And there should be an explicit and traceable opt in process for
reverse charge premium rate text message services.

That would end reverse SMS as hardly anyone would opt in.
I like the idea

But is there no audit trail for the subscribing text? If they claim you
sent 'Scores ManU' to 81234 they should have a log of when this was sent,
including all the metadata? Or can someone sign up to premium rate texts in
some other way than using the phone?

It shouldn't be too difficult to produce this log in case of dispute. Though
I suppose you might have to get into crypto to prove whether the log
entry was actually sent from your SIM or if the network made it up.

Theo

On 16 Mar 2010 23:38:01 +0000 (GMT), Theo Markettos
wrote:

But is there no audit trail for the subscribing text?

It appears not. Look at the response I received from giffgaff:

"This look like the customer is subscribed to a text service that
charges him £5 a text on return for a service."

If there was an audit trail I would have expected the response to
include when and how I "subscribed" to the service, rather than their
'tough luck' response.

What I didn't mention in my original article is that they closed the
ticket.

Or can someone sign up to premium rate texts in some other
way than using the phone?

I hope not. However, mobile customers have been charged for receiving
unsolicited premium text messages ever since such services were
launched, so it seems unlikely there are any checks and balances in
the system.

I note someone started another thread in uk.telecom.mobile about a
similar matter less than an hour before I did.
--
Martin Jay
Back the Ban: http://www.backtheban.com/
League Against Cruel Sports: http://www.league.org.uk/

On 17 Mar, 00:07, Martin Jay wrote:
On 16 Mar 2010 23:38:01 +0000 (GMT), Theo Markettos

wrote:
But is there no audit trail for the subscribing text?

It appears not. *Look at the response I received from giffgaff:

"This look like the customer is subscribed to a text service that
charges him £5 a text on return for a service."

If there was an audit trail I would have expected the response to
include when and how I "subscribed" to the service, rather than their
'tough luck' response.

What I didn't mention in my original article is that they closed the
ticket.

Or can someone sign up to premium rate texts in some other
way than using the phone?

I hope not. *However, mobile customers have been charged for receiving
unsolicited premium text messages ever since such services were
launched, so it seems unlikely there are any checks and balances in
the system.

I note someone started another thread in uk.telecom.mobile about a
similar matter less than an hour before I did.


Stop accusing giffgaff of complicity in theft, when neither they nor
any other network have no way at all of directly knowing whether you
actually subscribed or not

Complain to the service provider, which you can find by looking up the
number, and get a refund from them

And report them (the message provider) to Ofcom, or phonepayplus, or
whoever you can manage to ge to listenb

"Theo Markettos" wrote in message
...
Steve Terry wrote:
"Martin Jay" wrote in message
...
And there should be an explicit and traceable opt in process for
reverse charge premium rate text message services.

That would end reverse SMS as hardly anyone would opt in.
I like the idea

But is there no audit trail for the subscribing text? If they claim you
sent 'Scores ManU' to 81234 they should have a log of when this was sent,
including all the metadata? Or can someone sign up to premium rate texts
in
some other way than using the phone?

It shouldn't be too difficult to produce this log in case of dispute.
Though
I suppose you might have to get into crypto to prove whether the log
entry was actually sent from your SIM or if the network made it up.
Theo


It's always been possible to fake SMS headers

Steve Terry
--
Get a free Three 3pay Sim with £2 bonus after £10 top up
http://freeagent.three.co.uk/stand/view/id/5276

"andy" wrote in message
...
On 17 Mar, 00:07, Martin Jay wrote:
On 16 Mar 2010 23:38:01 +0000 (GMT), Theo Markettos

wrote:
But is there no audit trail for the subscribing text?

It appears not. Look at the response I received from giffgaff:

"This look like the customer is subscribed to a text service that
charges him £5 a text on return for a service."

If there was an audit trail I would have expected the response to
include when and how I "subscribed" to the service, rather than their
'tough luck' response.

What I didn't mention in my original article is that they closed the
ticket.

Or can someone sign up to premium rate texts in some other
way than using the phone?

I hope not. However, mobile customers have been charged for receiving
unsolicited premium text messages ever since such services were
launched, so it seems unlikely there are any checks and balances in
the system.

I note someone started another thread in uk.telecom.mobile about a
similar matter less than an hour before I did.

Stop accusing giffgaff of complicity in theft, when neither they nor
any other network have no way at all of directly knowing whether you
actually subscribed or not


Sounds to me like that's the definition of complicity in theft

It's the duty of the bill maker to know if their charges are correct

Steve Terry
--
Get a free Three 3pay Sim with £2 bonus after £10 top up
http://freeagent.three.co.uk/stand/view/id/5276

On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 18:42:47 -0700 (PDT), andy
wrote:

Stop accusing giffgaff of complicity in theft...

But that's exactly what it is.

...when neither they nor any other network have no way at all of
directly knowing whether you actually subscribed or not

That's what the mobile networks and their resellers have brainwashed
customers into believing. However, the contract exists between
con-con giffgaff and myself. It is their responsibility to ensure
that all charges are accurate and to investigate any that are
disputed.

Complain to the service provider, which you can find by looking up the
number, and get a refund from them

I have complained. I have complained to the company that charged me:
con-con giffgaff. It's not up to me go running around begging for a
refund from a third party I have no relationship with.
--
Martin Jay
Back the Ban: http://www.backtheban.com/
League Against Cruel Sports: http://www.league.org.uk/