UK Mobile Phones (uk.telecom.mobile) Mobile telephone equipment and networks.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Old May 30th 18, 06:31 PM posted to uk.telecom.mobile
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by MobileBanter: Feb 2016
Posts: 54
Default Airwave reaches parts other networks cannot reach...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/05..._4g_programme/




  #2   Report Post  
Old May 30th 18, 06:43 PM posted to uk.telecom.mobile
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by MobileBanter: Feb 2016
Posts: 111
Default Airwave reaches parts other networks cannot reach...



"Tweed" wrote in message
news
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/05..._4g_programme/


When will these government people learn

My guess is that they were far too ambitious with the roll out wanting all
of the new features to be 100% available on day one.

Instead of what a normal person would do, start with the basic features and
incrementally add on the extra bits piecemeal

I mean, how hard is it going to be to provide a basic voice service. It's a
publically available network FFS. I can go and buy a phone to do that now!

tim


  #3   Report Post  
Old May 30th 18, 09:21 PM posted to uk.telecom.mobile
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by MobileBanter: Mar 2017
Posts: 48
Default Airwave reaches parts other networks cannot reach...

On 30/05/2018 19:43, tim... wrote:


"Tweed" wrote in message
news
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/05..._4g_programme/


When will these government people learn

My guess is that they were far too ambitious with the roll out wanting
all of the new features to be 100% available on day one.


Probably, but it was the requirement to rescind some of the laws of
physics pertaining to the propagation of electromagnetic waves that will
have been their undoing. That and the usual list of "bad planning" x10.

Instead of what a normal person would do, start with the basic features
and incrementally add on the extra bits piecemeal

I mean, how hard is it going to be to provide a basic voice service.


If you choose the right frequency as the old system did it is easy but
if you insist on insane data rates and absolute availability under all
circumstances including national grid failure then it gets expensive.

It's a publically available network FFS.* I can go and buy a phone to do
that now!


Not away from the big cities you can't. There are dead spots for DAB
radio on the A1 even today and that is supposed to be "fully working".

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #4   Report Post  
Old May 30th 18, 10:59 PM posted to uk.telecom.mobile
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by MobileBanter: Jun 2015
Posts: 243
Default Airwave reaches parts other networks cannot reach...

On Wednesday, 30 May 2018 19:31:22 UTC+1, Tweed wrote:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/05..._4g_programme/


What do they need 4G for?

Mostly they want voice, text and the odd mug shot. 2.75G will do and give good coverage, which is probably more important for rural forces.
  #5   Report Post  
Old May 31st 18, 07:46 AM posted to uk.telecom.mobile
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by MobileBanter: Mar 2017
Posts: 48
Default Airwave reaches parts other networks cannot reach...

On 30/05/2018 23:59, R. Mark Clayton wrote:
On Wednesday, 30 May 2018 19:31:22 UTC+1, Tweed wrote:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/05..._4g_programme/


What do they need 4G for?


Bragging rights only.

Mostly they want voice, text and the odd mug shot. 2.75G will do and give good coverage, which is probably more important for rural forces.



--
Regards,
Martin Brown


  #6   Report Post  
Old May 31st 18, 08:36 AM posted to uk.telecom.mobile
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by MobileBanter: Feb 2016
Posts: 111
Default Airwave reaches parts other networks cannot reach...



"Martin Brown" wrote in message
news
On 30/05/2018 19:43, tim... wrote:


"Tweed" wrote in message
news
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/05..._4g_programme/


When will these government people learn

My guess is that they were far too ambitious with the roll out wanting
all of the new features to be 100% available on day one.


Probably, but it was the requirement to rescind some of the laws of
physics pertaining to the propagation of electromagnetic waves that will
have been their undoing.


Well I've no idea about that.

Surely all that they were doing was asking the operator of a current public
mobile network to add a secure layer onto it so as to provide for secure
private networks.

The reason that they (wanted to) move to this rather than continue with the
Tetra system was because all the features that they wanted (apart from this
network security) are already there (and they can piggy back on introduction
of new ones as they become available, stimulated by the needs of "normal"
customers).

Continually updating the Tetra equipment as new features became possible was
simply not cost effective if only a few (tens of) thousand people are using
it. (Of course, the original plan was that other commercial operators of
private networks would use it, but the costs were so high that, as these
customers don't actually need their network to be "secure", they just bought
mobile phones for all their needs)

That and the usual list of "bad planning" x10.

Instead of what a normal person would do, start with the basic features
and incrementally add on the extra bits piecemeal

I mean, how hard is it going to be to provide a basic voice service.


If you choose the right frequency as the old system did it is easy but if
you insist on insane data rates


well surely that's the add on that you wait for.

It not like the current system can do this now (or has any hope of being
modified to be capable)

and absolute availability under all circumstances including national grid
failure


you mean that's not a normal requirement for a telephone network (mobile or
otherwise)

It was for the whole of the 25 years that I worked in the industry (and the
previous 50 when my dad did, because that was, specifically, his day to day
job as a hands on "techy".)

then it gets expensive.


How do the mobos do this now?

Surely the solution used is to turn off access for private phone and just
allow emergency services use (however unfair this may be to normal users)

It's a publically available network FFS. I can go and buy a phone to do
that now!


Not away from the big cities you can't. There are dead spots for DAB radio
on the A1 even today and that is supposed to be "fully working".


Part of the project was to fill in these gaps. It's not technologically
difficult and they had 1.5 billion pounds to spend on it. It's a planning
problem, nothing else.

tim





  #7   Report Post  
Old May 31st 18, 09:16 AM posted to uk.telecom.mobile
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by MobileBanter: Nov 2010
Posts: 409
Default Airwave reaches parts other networks cannot reach...

On Wed, 30 May 2018 19:43:04 +0100, "tim..."
wrote:



"Tweed" wrote in message
news
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/05..._4g_programme/


When will these government people learn

My guess is that they were far too ambitious with the roll out wanting all
of the new features to be 100% available on day one.

Instead of what a normal person would do, start with the basic features and
incrementally add on the extra bits piecemeal

I mean, how hard is it going to be to provide a basic voice service. It's a
publically available network FFS. I can go and buy a phone to do that now!

1. Could it be to allow sell-off of the frequencies used by Tetra?
2. Could it be to allow competitive tender in the future so emergency
services are not tied to one provider?
3. I thought 5G was on the horizon (excuse the pun) so why specify
4G?

  #8   Report Post  
Old May 31st 18, 09:54 AM posted to uk.telecom.mobile
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by MobileBanter: Jan 2015
Posts: 108
Default Airwave reaches parts other networks cannot reach...

On 31/05/2018 09:36, tim... wrote:


"Martin Brown" wrote in message
news
On 30/05/2018 19:43, tim... wrote:


"Tweed" wrote in message
news http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/05..._4g_programme/


When will these government people learn

My guess is that they were far too ambitious with the roll out
wanting all of the new features to be 100% available on day one.


Probably, but it was the requirement to rescind some of the laws of
physics pertaining to the propagation of electromagnetic waves that
will have been their undoing.


Well I've no idea about that.

Surely all that they were doing was asking the operator of a current
public mobile network to add a secure layer onto it so as to provide for
secure private networks.

The reason that they (wanted to) move to this rather than continue with
the Tetra system was because all the features that they wanted (apart
from this network security) are already there (and they can piggy back
on introduction of new ones as they become available, stimulated by the
needs of "normal" customers).

Continually updating the Tetra equipment as new features became possible
was simply not cost effective if only a few (tens of) thousand people
are using it.* (Of course, the original plan was that other commercial
operators of private networks would use it, but the costs were so high
that, as these customers don't actually need their network to be
"secure", they just bought mobile phones for all their needs)

That and the usual list of "bad planning" x10.

Instead of what a normal person would do, start with the basic
features and incrementally add on the extra bits piecemeal

I mean, how hard is it going to be to provide a basic voice service.


If you choose the right frequency as the old system did it is easy but
if you insist on insane data rates


well surely that's the add on that you wait for.

It not like the current system can do this now (or has any hope of being
modified to be capable)

and absolute availability under all circumstances including national
grid failure


you mean that's not a normal requirement for a telephone network (mobile
or otherwise)

It was for the whole of the 25 years that I worked in the industry (and
the previous 50 when my dad did, because that was, specifically, his day
to day job as a hands on "techy".)

then it gets expensive.


How do the mobos do this now?

Surely the solution used is to turn off access for private phone and
just allow emergency services use (however unfair this may be to normal
users)

It's a publically available network FFS.* I can go and buy a phone to
do that now!


Not away from the big cities you can't. There are dead spots for DAB
radio on the A1 even today and that is supposed to be "fully working".


Part of the project was to fill in these gaps.* It's not technologically
difficult and they had 1.5 billion pounds to spend on it.* It's a
planning problem, nothing else.

tim








Wild claims were made about Airwave when it was being sold - cameras in
real time, MDTs etc. I believe the terminals ended up on other networks
which seems better for resilience though not for the profits of the
companies running Airwave. I was never impressed by the "all eggs in
one basket" principle of Airwave and get the impression that there have
been more failures than admitted publicly.

I remember just before they changed over, I was talking to some police
radio techs who said they could upgrade their existing network to do
what the police needed rather than what the sales people wanted to sell
them.

Isn't the point of the new system that it keeps costs down by sharing
with an existing network.

Like landline phones and existing mobile networks, there will be systems
in place to switch off non-essential users if needed.



  #9   Report Post  
Old May 31st 18, 10:16 AM posted to uk.telecom.mobile
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by MobileBanter: Feb 2016
Posts: 54
Default Airwave reaches parts other networks cannot reach...

MB wrote:
On 31/05/2018 09:36, tim... wrote:


"Martin Brown" wrote in message
news
On 30/05/2018 19:43, tim... wrote:


"Tweed" wrote in message
news http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/05..._4g_programme/



When will these government people learn

My guess is that they were far too ambitious with the roll out
wanting all of the new features to be 100% available on day one.

Probably, but it was the requirement to rescind some of the laws of
physics pertaining to the propagation of electromagnetic waves that
will have been their undoing.


Well I've no idea about that.

Surely all that they were doing was asking the operator of a current
public mobile network to add a secure layer onto it so as to provide for
secure private networks.

The reason that they (wanted to) move to this rather than continue with
the Tetra system was because all the features that they wanted (apart
from this network security) are already there (and they can piggy back
on introduction of new ones as they become available, stimulated by the
needs of "normal" customers).

Continually updating the Tetra equipment as new features became possible
was simply not cost effective if only a few (tens of) thousand people
are using it.* (Of course, the original plan was that other commercial
operators of private networks would use it, but the costs were so high
that, as these customers don't actually need their network to be
"secure", they just bought mobile phones for all their needs)

That and the usual list of "bad planning" x10.

Instead of what a normal person would do, start with the basic
features and incrementally add on the extra bits piecemeal

I mean, how hard is it going to be to provide a basic voice service.

If you choose the right frequency as the old system did it is easy but
if you insist on insane data rates


well surely that's the add on that you wait for.

It not like the current system can do this now (or has any hope of being
modified to be capable)

and absolute availability under all circumstances including national
grid failure


you mean that's not a normal requirement for a telephone network (mobile
or otherwise)

It was for the whole of the 25 years that I worked in the industry (and
the previous 50 when my dad did, because that was, specifically, his day
to day job as a hands on "techy".)

then it gets expensive.


How do the mobos do this now?

Surely the solution used is to turn off access for private phone and
just allow emergency services use (however unfair this may be to normal
users)

It's a publically available network FFS.* I can go and buy a phone to
do that now!

Not away from the big cities you can't. There are dead spots for DAB
radio on the A1 even today and that is supposed to be "fully working".


Part of the project was to fill in these gaps.* It's not technologically
difficult and they had 1.5 billion pounds to spend on it.* It's a
planning problem, nothing else.

tim








Wild claims were made about Airwave when it was being sold - cameras in
real time, MDTs etc. I believe the terminals ended up on other networks
which seems better for resilience though not for the profits of the
companies running Airwave. I was never impressed by the "all eggs in
one basket" principle of Airwave and get the impression that there have
been more failures than admitted publicly.

I remember just before they changed over, I was talking to some police
radio techs who said they could upgrade their existing network to do
what the police needed rather than what the sales people wanted to sell
them.

Isn't the point of the new system that it keeps costs down by sharing
with an existing network.

Like landline phones and existing mobile networks, there will be systems
in place to switch off non-essential users if needed.





Tetra does things that the standard 4G network doesn’t. Eg local handset
calling without a base station, using vehicle sets as a handset repeater,
group calls involving very many handsets. They don’t seemed to have cracked
this on the EE network yet.

  #10   Report Post  
Old May 31st 18, 10:52 AM posted to uk.telecom.mobile
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by MobileBanter: Feb 2016
Posts: 111
Default Airwave reaches parts other networks cannot reach...



"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 May 2018 19:43:04 +0100, "tim..."
wrote:



"Tweed" wrote in message
news
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/05..._4g_programme/


When will these government people learn

My guess is that they were far too ambitious with the roll out wanting all
of the new features to be 100% available on day one.

Instead of what a normal person would do, start with the basic features
and
incrementally add on the extra bits piecemeal

I mean, how hard is it going to be to provide a basic voice service. It's
a
publically available network FFS. I can go and buy a phone to do that
now!

1. Could it be to allow sell-off of the frequencies used by Tetra?
2. Could it be to allow competitive tender in the future so emergency
services are not tied to one provider?
3. I thought 5G was on the horizon (excuse the pun) so why specify
4G?


you are answering the wrong question

The question isn't

why did TPTB decide that they were going to swap the emergency service
network from a bespoke system to an open one?

That is clearly because they expect it to cost less and provide better
future upgradability

The question is, why did they cock up that change over by over-specifying
the starting point.

Instead of saying

Please provide us ASAP with a network that does "everything that we have
now" at a lower cost but with capacity to add the following features later.

they said

please provide us with a network with all of the new features at start up,
in, what has tuned out to be, an undeliverable timescale.

So instead of having the cheaper version of what we have now (to improve on
in the future), they have nothing (except the old expensive system)

tim





Reply
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
ppi spam reaches new low: machine calls to mobiles [email protected] UK Mobile Phones 15 November 14th 12 01:18 PM
WE BUY used, new and refurbed Sun, Cisco, Lucent, Nortel, Alcatel,3com, IBM, HP, Compaq, Dell, Madge, Cabletron, Juniper Networks, Bintec,Siemens, Foundry, Networks, Extreme Networks, Fore/Marconi, TellabsLucent/Avaya/Ascend, Xylogics, Brocade, Int Mike[_5_] UK Mobile Phones 0 February 16th 08 01:49 AM
BT and T-Mobile reach major network agreement Sunil Sood UK Mobile Phones 7 July 27th 07 06:49 PM
[?] Looking for Motorola 'Cello' pagers on BT 'Easy-Reach' scheme. David Chapman UK Mobile Phones 10 May 6th 04 07:15 PM
MMS sent from Orange phone never reaches 3G - why? Simon Fearby UK Mobile Phones 2 April 27th 04 07:13 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:59 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2018 Mobile Banter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about UK mobile phones"

 

Copyright © 2017