UK Mobile Phones (uk.telecom.mobile) Mobile telephone equipment and networks.

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Old November 17th 18, 11:05 AM posted to uk.telecom.mobile,uk.telecom.broadband
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Default 5G will let users ditch fixed-line home broadband, says Three

"Chris in Makati" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 8 Nov 2018 12:05:14 +0000, Java Jive
wrote:

On 08/11/2018 11:41, NY wrote:

I just hope that the phone companies don't blow all their money
upgrading mobile/data coverage for the people who already have a fairly
fast connection, and neglect the people in more rural areas who can't
even get 100% reliable phone call and slow data coverage.


Which, of course, is exactly what will happen under the current
laissez-faire non-management of hands-off-com. What is needed at very
least is a regime where telecoms operators have to finish rolling out nG
to the entire population before they are allowed to commence rolling out
(n+1)G, but this never, ever seems to happen !-(


Providing mobile coverage to absolutely everyone is never going to
happen, nor should it be necessary to do so. In some areas it's
totally uneconomic to install cellsites when all that's in the
coverage area are a handful of people and a few sheep.



Agreed. I'm not talking about remote places like that. I'm talking about a
fairly flat plain (Ryedale) with villages of a couple of few hundred people
every mile or so in every direction. And market towns like Malton and
Pickering. And a couple of trunk A roads leading to the coast.

In that terrain I'd expect mobile phone companies to provide almost seamless
mobile phone reception, and pretty good (eg 3G) data reception in most
places. I'm not sure whether the problem is poor signal coverage or
overloaded masts. I suspect that "not registered on network" means "good
signal strength but the mast you are talking to can't accept any more
connections at the moment". When signal strength does vary, it seems to do
so even when you are static - time-dependent as well as location-dependent
fluctuations. I've got Network Cell Info Lite installed on my phone and the
quality of data connection varies wildly in one place between 2.5G and 4G
where I am at present, even though though the strength remains pretty
constant. That's in a tiny hamlet in Wensleydale which *does* come into the
"handful of people and a few sheep" category.


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Old November 17th 18, 12:05 PM posted to uk.telecom.mobile,uk.telecom.broadband
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Default 5G will let users ditch fixed-line home broadband, says Three

On 17/11/2018 09:49, Graham J wrote:
Java Jive wrote:
On 17/11/2018 04:15, Chris in Makati wrote:

Providing mobile coverage to absolutely everyone is never going to
happen, nor should it be necessary to do so. In some areas it's
totally uneconomic to install cellsites when all that's in the
coverage area are a handful of people and a few sheep.


The emergency services are going to replace their current TETRA system
with a 4G network.* Are you saying that they should'n't be able to
communicate in low population areas?* If a farmer gets injured by his
livestock or his machinery some distance from his landline and cannot
walk to it, should (s)he not be able to phone for help?


Farmers have historically fitted 2-way radios in vehicles to cover
exactly this sort of emergency.


If they cannot walk to their landline, then they're unlikely to be able
to walk to a vehicle either, while a mobile phone is hopefully in a
farmer's pocket.

If having a mobile phone or an internet connection improves the
efficiency of a variety of services, then some part of the cost of
providing the phone or internet should be borne by the services gaining
the advantage.* This might then make it practical to increase coverage;
but it would probably require legislation to ensure a universal service
obligation.


Currently many such services also use the roads, but, while there is a
licence to pay, there is no tax on the roads per se. Applying the same
principle to mobile infrastructure, the logical consequence of what you
are saying is that mobiles should be taxed to pay for extending the
infrastructure into remote areas, but others here, for example MB, are
constantly bleating that they don't see why people who live in towns
should subsidise those who live in the countryside. The truth is that
all such debates are full of inherent contradictions, and almost any
stance one takes is open to a charge of inconsistency or even hypocrisy.

To me the overriding principle is that of equality of treatment, as
exemplified by emergencies. If you want the emergency services to use
relatively cheap 4G services instead of the current expensive bespoke
network which apparently in some respects doesn't actually work very
well, and you also want them to be able to operate in remote areas, then
the government will need to fund the extension of the network into
remote areas. Historically this has already been done with many other
services, which we now take for granted - electricity, clean drinking
water, postal service, etc - so I really don't see any reason in
principle why it shouldn't apply to mobile phone networks as well,
especially as the landline infrastructure in many remote areas is in
such a ****-poor state of repair. In many such locations, perhaps even
most, it would cheaper to replace landlines with a good mobile service
than to try to repair the copper wiring to every home, let alone replace
it with fibre.

To get back to my original post, already 4G gives me a better download
speed from my mobile than I get from my landline, and I would happily
give up the latter if:

* In case of power failure, the mobile service was guaranteed to
last at least as long as the landline service can.

* There was an equivalently priced broadband package offering an
unlimited or nearly so download limit.
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Old November 17th 18, 01:02 PM posted to uk.telecom.mobile,uk.telecom.broadband
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Default 5G will let users ditch fixed-line home broadband, says Three

In that terrain I'd expect mobile phone companies to provide almost seamless
mobile phone reception, and pretty good (eg 3G) data reception in most
places. I'm not sure whether the problem is poor signal coverage or
overloaded masts. I suspect that "not registered on network" means "good
signal strength but the mast you are talking to can't accept any more
connections at the moment". When signal strength does vary, it seems to do
so even when you are static - time-dependent as well as location-dependent
fluctuations. I've got Network Cell Info Lite installed on my phone and the
quality of data connection varies wildly in one place between 2.5G and 4G
where I am at present, even though though the strength remains pretty
constant. That's in a tiny hamlet in Wensleydale which *does* come into the
"handful of people and a few sheep" category.


Is your phone sufficiently modern to cover all frequency bands in use by
your operator, and are you using an operator that allows the use off all
bands? Some of the secondary MVNOs are not “all band”. When I changed my
phone from an iPhone 5 to an iPhone 7 my coverage improved no end. The
former device was unable to exploit all the bands currently in use by
Vodafone.



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Old November 17th 18, 02:29 PM posted to uk.telecom.mobile,uk.telecom.broadband
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"Tweed" wrote in message
news
In that terrain I'd expect mobile phone companies to provide almost
seamless
mobile phone reception, and pretty good (eg 3G) data reception in most
places. I'm not sure whether the problem is poor signal coverage or
overloaded masts. I suspect that "not registered on network" means "good
signal strength but the mast you are talking to can't accept any more
connections at the moment". When signal strength does vary, it seems to
do
so even when you are static - time-dependent as well as
location-dependent
fluctuations. I've got Network Cell Info Lite installed on my phone and
the
quality of data connection varies wildly in one place between 2.5G and 4G
where I am at present, even though though the strength remains pretty
constant. That's in a tiny hamlet in Wensleydale which *does* come into
the
"handful of people and a few sheep" category.


Is your phone sufficiently modern to cover all frequency bands in use by
your operator, and are you using an operator that allows the use of all
bands? Some of the secondary MVNOs are not “all band”. When I changed my
phone from an iPhone 5 to an iPhone 7 my coverage improved no end. The
former device was unable to exploit all the bands currently in use by
Vodafone.


My phone is a Samsung Galaxy S7, and I use Vodafone.

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Old November 17th 18, 03:17 PM posted to uk.telecom.mobile,uk.telecom.broadband
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Default 5G will let users ditch fixed-line home broadband, says Three

On 17/11/2018 12:05, Java Jive wrote:
On 17/11/2018 09:49, Graham J wrote:


Farmers have historically fitted 2-way radios in vehicles to cover
exactly this sort of emergency.


If they cannot walk to their landline, then they're unlikely to be able
to walk to a vehicle either, while a mobile phone is hopefully in a
farmer's pocket.


I'm a radio amateur. There is very often a 2m or 70cm hand-portable on
my belt or in my coat pocket. Granted, I don't *always* have one with
me, but I do a lot of the time.

My phone *is* always with me though (unless I forget to pick it up when
going out), so the point is well made.

Radio is still very useful on occasion, though. Many years ago when I
was young and foolish (as opposed to old and foolish as I am now..) I
took a corner at far too high a speed and crashed my car into a stone
wall. The car was a write-off and I'd broken a bone in my hand when it
smacked against the gear lever.

I didn't have a phone (this was before the days when they became cheap
enough for the world and his wife) but I did have the 2m amateur band. I
was able to raise a friend who called my father to come and pick me up.
This was after midnight in the middle of nowhere, there was no passing
traffic in the 45 minutes or so between the accident and my father
arriving, if I'd not had communications of some sort, I might have been
there all night, which would not have been good had my injuries been
more serious.


--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]


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Old November 17th 18, 06:49 PM posted to uk.telecom.mobile,uk.telecom.broadband
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On 17/11/2018 07:18, Tweed wrote:
But shouldn’t the aim to be to provide coverage to everywhere rather than
everyone? It is, after all, a mobile system. As an end user, I’d like to
see my mobile operate everywhere, just in case I happen to end up in your
place with one person and half a dozen sheep and need to make a call/
received data etc. Clearly, 100% coverage is never going to happen, but it
should be a goal. There must be lots of sites that on their own are
uneconomic, but add to the utility of the system, which in itself is
economic.


And how much extra are you prepared to pay for that?
Double? Triple? Ten times as much?


--

Brian Gregory (in England).
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Old November 17th 18, 08:52 PM posted to uk.telecom.mobile,uk.telecom.broadband
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"Brian Gregory" wrote in message
...
On 17/11/2018 07:18, Tweed wrote:
But shouldn’t the aim to be to provide coverage to everywhere rather than
everyone? It is, after all, a mobile system. As an end user, I’d like to
see my mobile operate everywhere, just in case I happen to end up in your
place with one person and half a dozen sheep and need to make a call/
received data etc. Clearly, 100% coverage is never going to happen, but
it
should be a goal. There must be lots of sites that on their own are
uneconomic, but add to the utility of the system, which in itself is
economic.


And how much extra are you prepared to pay for that?
Double? Triple? Ten times as much?


If I live in the middle of nowhere I'd expect to have to pay extra. I would
probably use good internet and TV reception as a deciding factor in choosing
where to live, the same as closeness to supermarkets, transport links,
doctors etc. Anywhere that there are communities of villages and towns every
few miles, with no massive hills and valleys around, I'd expect by now that
coverage to some minimum standard would be guaranteed. I'd set the minimum
standard at uninterrupted phone calls without intermittent dropouts, and
internet to maybe 4 Mbps - good enough for general browsing, even if rather
slow for big downloads.

It annoys the hell out of me that mobile phone companies give 4G and 5G to
those people in large towns and cities who already have good 3G coverage,
while those *slightly* outside that population density slip further behind
and are neglected.

By now we should also have solved the problem of supplying FTTC to
*everyone* within a certain distance of the exchange, without some streets
being stuck with ADSL (and sometimes slow ADSL) because they are too close
to the exchange to get a green cabinet, and BT can't/won't install a cabinet
next to the exchange but far enough away to avoid crosstalk with exchange
equipment.

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Old November 18th 18, 12:49 AM posted to uk.telecom.mobile,uk.telecom.broadband
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On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 09:31:59 +0000, Java Jive
wrote:

On 17/11/2018 04:15, Chris in Makati wrote:

Providing mobile coverage to absolutely everyone is never going to
happen, nor should it be necessary to do so. In some areas it's
totally uneconomic to install cellsites when all that's in the
coverage area are a handful of people and a few sheep.


The emergency services are going to replace their current TETRA system
with a 4G network. Are you saying that they should'n't be able to
communicate in low population areas? If a farmer gets injured by his
livestock or his machinery some distance from his landline and cannot
walk to it, should (s)he not be able to phone for help?


In both cases, they need to chose an alternative method of
communication that's more suited to the remote areas in which they
work and operate in.

How do you think ships and aircraft traveling over thousands of miles
of open ocean have communicated for many decades? There are
alternatives to public mobile networks.
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Old November 18th 18, 10:17 AM posted to uk.telecom.mobile
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On 09/11/2018 14:02, Martin Brown wrote:
I can't see rural North Yorkshire ever getting past 3G until hell
freezes over. Plenty are still on 2.5G and one bar of signal on a good
day if you are lucky. People here are used to balancing their phone on a
vase in the right window to gat any kind of mobile signal at all.


Many years ago we did some work for one of the GSM networks, we had to
contact their control before taking a base station offline. I remember
one time the chap there said it was OK because "there are more ####ing
sheep in that area than people with mobile phones".

Won't the Home Office Emergency Services Network result in many remote
areas getting 4G? Airwave had to feed some base stations by satellite
to get the required coverage though obviously did not benefit other
users except for building sites with towers and power in many areas.


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Old November 18th 18, 10:34 AM posted to uk.telecom.mobile,uk.telecom.broadband
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On 18/11/2018 00:49, Chris in Makati wrote:
On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 09:31:59 +0000, Java Jive
wrote:

On 17/11/2018 04:15, Chris in Makati wrote:

Providing mobile coverage to absolutely everyone is never going to
happen, nor should it be necessary to do so. In some areas it's
totally uneconomic to install cellsites when all that's in the
coverage area are a handful of people and a few sheep.


The emergency services are going to replace their current TETRA system
with a 4G network. Are you saying that they should'n't be able to
communicate in low population areas? If a farmer gets injured by his
livestock or his machinery some distance from his landline and cannot
walk to it, should (s)he not be able to phone for help?


In both cases, they need to chose an alternative method of
communication that's more suited to the remote areas in which they
work and operate in.


But, AIUI, the simple fact is, they haven't, they've chosen 4G.

How do you think ships and aircraft traveling over thousands of miles
of open ocean have communicated for many decades? There are
alternatives to public mobile networks.


I think the key phrase there is 'open ocean' - that's a very different
environment than mountainous regions of the UK.


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