UK Mobile Phones (uk.telecom.mobile) Mobile telephone equipment and networks.

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  #131   Report Post  
Old December 6th 18, 04:56 PM posted to uk.telecom.mobile,comp.mobile.android,uk.telecom.broadband
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Default Mobile faster than wi-fi in many countries

In article , Martin Brown
wrote:

Atheros and Broadcom are chipsets of choice for Apple compatibility. The
bugs that cause trouble seem to be in multicastDNS variously called
zeroconf, Rendezvous or Bonjour. ISP supplied routers are notorious for
not doing it very well which leads to unreliable Apple (& Naim) kit
operation. If you only have PCs then it isn't a problem.


not true. mdns is used by more than just apple and whether it works
correctly is a function of the router's firmware, not the chipset used.


The chipset is a part of it though - for some reason the canonical
firmware implementation on Atheros and Broadcom chipset based devices is
considerably more Apple friendly than with other chipsets. I'm not
saying you can't find a bad implementation on them only that all the
reliability problems I have seen with Apple kit seem to come from
routers that use certain chipsets (irrespective of their firmware).


apple isn't doing anything unusual.

i have a wide assortment of routers and have yet to find *any* problem
with apple in particular.

there are ****ty routers out there, but they'll have problems with more
than just apple devices.

the biggest problem i've seen is that some of them have a horrible user
interface, which can sometimes be remedied with alternate firmwares.

where it's a problem is across vlans, but very few people have vlans,
other than a guest wifi network which is usually set up as a vlan.

Some powerline devices despite using Atheros chipset have botched mDNS.

Marvell chipset is a bit too new to be sure whether it is good or not.

Chipsets to avoid with Apple gear are Realtek and Ralink.


also not true.


If you are having problems with Apple gear and a specific router it is a
reasonable heuristic to take a look at. There may well be good router
implementations on these chipsets but I have yet to see one. I have seen
plenty of instances of Apple kit being tetchy about what it talks to.


i don't know what you've seen, but i've yet to see a router that has
issues with only apple and nothing else.

again, apple is not doing anything unusual, other than being compliant
with the standards.

And you
absolutely need a solid implementation of mDNS in some flavour.


that part is true. mdns is *extremely* useful.


The key being that it needs to be rock solid or things will break.


no different than anything else, and break doesn't necessarily mean no
functionality at all.

  #132   Report Post  
Old December 6th 18, 05:18 PM posted to uk.telecom.mobile,comp.mobile.android,uk.telecom.broadband
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"nospam" wrote in message
...
the industry thinks gigabit is a must have, especially given the amount
of data people are managing and that nvme ssds, usb3 and thunderbolt
are *much* faster.


I would imagine that a lot of users only transfer data between various PCs
and the internet (eg web browsing, sending/receiving emails, streaming
movies from Netflix etc), and don't make much use of PC-to-PC transfers. For
them, the most important thing is WAN speed (router to internet), so 10 Mbps
may be sufficient for some people with ADSL, and 100 Mbps will be sufficient
for most people with FTTC/VDSL.

Those of us who transfer data between PCs and so need 1000 Mbps are either
running a business which has its own server to provide shared access to
files used by multiple PCs, or else have a NAS for serving movies to one or
more computers, tablets, Roku boxes etc.



As an aside, does USB degrade gracefully as cable length is increased? I saw
a comparison of RS232 versus USB (1, 2 or 3) and it mentioned that RS232 is
still better than USB where peripherals need to be a long distance from the
computer that is driving them. Leaving aside the fact that Ethernet is
probably better than either RS232 or USB for this, how does USB cope with
long lines? If two USB3 devices or two USB2 devices are connected by a very
long USB lead, will it just fail completely, or will they negotiate a lower
speed (eg USB3 degrades to USB2 or USB1 speed) that the long line is capable
of supporting?

  #133   Report Post  
Old December 6th 18, 05:29 PM posted to uk.telecom.mobile,comp.mobile.android,uk.telecom.broadband
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In article , NY
wrote:

the industry thinks gigabit is a must have, especially given the amount
of data people are managing and that nvme ssds, usb3 and thunderbolt
are *much* faster.


I would imagine that a lot of users only transfer data between various PCs
and the internet (eg web browsing, sending/receiving emails, streaming
movies from Netflix etc), and don't make much use of PC-to-PC transfers. For
them, the most important thing is WAN speed (router to internet), so 10 Mbps
may be sufficient for some people with ADSL, and 100 Mbps will be sufficient
for most people with FTTC/VDSL.

Those of us who transfer data between PCs and so need 1000 Mbps are either
running a business which has its own server to provide shared access to
files used by multiple PCs, or else have a NAS for serving movies to one or
more computers, tablets, Roku boxes etc.


most people have more than 1 device and *do* transfer between them,
whether it's another computer or a nas or whatever else.

As an aside, does USB degrade gracefully as cable length is increased? I saw
a comparison of RS232 versus USB (1, 2 or 3) and it mentioned that RS232 is
still better than USB where peripherals need to be a long distance from the
computer that is driving them. Leaving aside the fact that Ethernet is
probably better than either RS232 or USB for this, how does USB cope with
long lines? If two USB3 devices or two USB2 devices are connected by a very
long USB lead, will it just fail completely, or will they negotiate a lower
speed (eg USB3 degrades to USB2 or USB1 speed) that the long line is capable
of supporting?


usb 1 & 2 is limited to 5 meters, less for usb3 (although no exact
length specified):
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Cabling

longer distances will require a hub, repeater or media converter.
  #134   Report Post  
Old December 6th 18, 05:30 PM posted to uk.telecom.mobile,comp.mobile.android,uk.telecom.broadband
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On 06/12/2018 16:56, nospam wrote:
In article , Martin Brown
wrote:


If you are having problems with Apple gear and a specific router it is a
reasonable heuristic to take a look at. There may well be good router
implementations on these chipsets but I have yet to see one. I have seen
plenty of instances of Apple kit being tetchy about what it talks to.


i don't know what you've seen, but i've yet to see a router that has
issues with only apple and nothing else.

again, apple is not doing anything unusual, other than being compliant
with the standards.


It does seem to be less tolerant about what it accepts than some other
implementations on Android and 'Doze.

And you
absolutely need a solid implementation of mDNS in some flavour.

that part is true. mdns is *extremely* useful.


The key being that it needs to be rock solid or things will break.


no different than anything else, and break doesn't necessarily mean no
functionality at all.


What it tends to mean is that things do work for a while and then
mysteriously stop working requiring one or other of the affected devices
or routers to be power cycled before the Apple will play again. Android
and PC devices still work OK whilst the iP*d Wifi link is belly up.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #135   Report Post  
Old December 6th 18, 05:43 PM posted to uk.telecom.mobile,comp.mobile.android,uk.telecom.broadband
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Default Mobile faster than wi-fi in many countries

In article , Martin Brown
wrote:

If you are having problems with Apple gear and a specific router it is a
reasonable heuristic to take a look at. There may well be good router
implementations on these chipsets but I have yet to see one. I have seen
plenty of instances of Apple kit being tetchy about what it talks to.


i don't know what you've seen, but i've yet to see a router that has
issues with only apple and nothing else.

again, apple is not doing anything unusual, other than being compliant
with the standards.


It does seem to be less tolerant about what it accepts than some other
implementations on Android and 'Doze.


again, i have not noticed any issues specific to apple using a *wide*
variety of routers and apple devices as well as apple routers and
non-apple devices.

there are many reasons why something might not work, which has nothing
to do with who made what component.

And you
absolutely need a solid implementation of mDNS in some flavour.

that part is true. mdns is *extremely* useful.

The key being that it needs to be rock solid or things will break.


no different than anything else, and break doesn't necessarily mean no
functionality at all.


What it tends to mean is that things do work for a while and then
mysteriously stop working requiring one or other of the affected devices
or routers to be power cycled before the Apple will play again. Android
and PC devices still work OK whilst the iP*d Wifi link is belly up.


any issues with mdns would only affect mdns itself, not wifi
connectivity overall.

something else is going on.


  #136   Report Post  
Old December 6th 18, 06:51 PM posted to uk.telecom.mobile,comp.mobile.android,uk.telecom.broadband
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On 06/12/2018 16:22, Frank Slootweg wrote:

As I said, my 3 year old mid-range laptop does *not* have Gigabit
Ethernet. A new comparable laptop - same (major) brand/range and similar
price - *does* have Gigabit Ethernet, so AFAIC nospam's claim "made in
the past decade (actually longer than that)" is way over the top. Not
that that's unusual in any way, but still. (Anyway, it's a bit silly to
talk about the 'neccessity' of very high *hardwired* network speed for a
*mobile* device such as a laptop.)


As I've already pointed out, my Dell Latitude 610, purchased *used* in
February 2011, has Gigabit Ethernet, and this was one reason why I
purchased that particular one as opposed to other used laptops available
at the time.

I'm actually rather shocked that so much Fast Ethernet (10/100 Mbps) kit
is *still* being sold, though thankfully at least these days when you
examine the specs of used kit on eBay which claims to be Gigabit
Ethernet, thankfully it nearly always is - this didn't used to be the
case; about the same time as I bought the above laptop, almost the
majority of items such as switches described as Gigabit Ethernet
(10/100/1000 Mbps) were actually only Fast Ethernet (10/100 Mbps), and
in at least one case was actually only Ethernet (10 Mbps)!

I think the reason that there is so much Fast Ethernet kit still around
is the predominance of WiFi in at least the home market, perhaps also
the small office market. WiFi is not just more convenient, but, under
favourable conditions, 802.11n is actually faster than Fast Ethernet as
well, so manufacturers for these markets have tended to concentrate on
making equipment with the latest WiFi standards rather than the latest
cable standards. But it's a pig's dinner whichever way you look at it
- if you take off the cover of my network media players that will only
go at 10/100, actually they've got 10/100/1000 hardware, and I suspect
that's true of a lot of other 10/100 only kit as well, so why not design
the whole thing to support the latest cabled standards as well?
  #137   Report Post  
Old December 6th 18, 08:17 PM posted to uk.telecom.mobile,comp.mobile.android,uk.telecom.broadband
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NY wrote:
[...]

Those of us who transfer data between PCs and so need 1000 Mbps are either
running a business which has its own server to provide shared access to
files used by multiple PCs, or else have a NAS for serving movies to one or
more computers, tablets, Roku boxes etc.


You're of course free to use what you like, but realize that even with
100 (not 1000) Mbps, you can have many, many (anywhere from 10++ to 25)
"computers, tablets, Roku boxes etc." streaming at HD resolution! :-)

And did you note the guy is this thread (forgot who), who implied that
54Mbps was not enough for *audio*!?
  #138   Report Post  
Old December 7th 18, 03:15 AM posted to uk.telecom.mobile,comp.mobile.android,uk.telecom.broadband
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On 06/12/2018 17.22, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:
On 05/12/2018 20:08, Frank Slootweg wrote:
NY wrote:
"nospam" wrote in message
...
how old is this mystery laptop that it doesn't have gigabit?

computers, servers, etc made in the past decade (actually longer than
that) have gigabit, which means it *will* saturate the network.

that's why many nases have multiple gigabit ports or 10gig-e ports,
because gigabit is a significant bottleneck. 100bt would be a disaster.

When did Gigabit become standard? Both my Win 7 desktop and my Win 7 laptop
have 100 Mbps Ethernet, and the laptop's wifi is only 2.4 GHz and can't use
5 GHz, but it is wireless N. I imagine that was a typical spec at the time,
but things have moved on since then.

I'd estimate that desktop is 2008 and laptop 2009 or 2010, but I could be
wrong.

Don't worry. You're just living in the real world. My 2015 mid-range
laptop also just has 100 BASE-T (and Wireless N).

FWIW, I just checked two of our biggest webshops and even for dektops,
out of 20+ selection criteria, hardwired LAN speed isn't even a
selection criterium and in the individual specs, it's most of the time
not even mentioned, i.e. just 'Ethernet'. Kind of shows how relevant
Gigabit Ethernet is in the real (consumer) world.


That's because 10/100/1000 has pretty much become the default now. They
would only shout about it if they offered anything faster.


Note that nospam mentioned "computers, servers, etc".

It's probably true for "servers", i.e. (mostly) professional use, but
that's not the topic of this thread, nor of this group.

The "computers" part is desktops and laptops and this (sub)thread is
mainly about laptops (nospam telling Carlos what's 'wrong' with his
system(s) and network).


LOL


As I said, my 3 year old mid-range laptop does *not* have Gigabit
Ethernet. A new comparable laptop - same (major) brand/range and similar
price - *does* have Gigabit Ethernet, so AFAIC nospam's claim "made in
the past decade (actually longer than that)" is way over the top. Not
that that's unusual in any way, but still. (Anyway, it's a bit silly to
talk about the 'neccessity' of very high *hardwired* network speed for a
*mobile* device such as a laptop.)


Right.

So back in the real world, mere mortals like Carlos, myself, etc.
don't have nor want/need gigabit all over the place, just because nospam
thinks it's a more-than-a-decade-old must-have.


Oh, I do want gigabit! But I'm not going to scrape all that slower
hardware at a whim, I need all that money! Now, if I get a few kind
donations... X-)


Corporate kit that is being retired at present is gigabit capable eg.


Exactly *corporate* *desktop* kit and it's probably being retired
after only a few years, *not* "made in the past decade (actually longer
than that)".


Actually, on several of my jobs I had to cope with ancient and
anti-powerful hardware - forgive my inventing a word right now :-)

In fact, only on one of my jobs I had decent hardware.


https://www.morgancomputers.co.uk/pr...-Professional/

And available refurbished at very reasonable prices.



--
Cheers, Carlos.
  #139   Report Post  
Old December 7th 18, 03:18 AM posted to uk.telecom.mobile,comp.mobile.android,uk.telecom.broadband
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On 06/12/2018 16.32, Martin Brown wrote:
On 06/12/2018 14:40, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 06/12/2018 15.09, Martin Brown wrote:

[snip]
Corporate kit that is being retired at present is gigabit capable eg.

https://www.morgancomputers.co.uk/pr...-Professional/



And available refurbished at very reasonable prices.


I wish they'd do that here.


Is there no equivalent of Morgan Computers in Spain or France?
(there is a business opportunity here for you)

They were a lot better in the past with really stunning bargains if you
had the space to accomodate bulky workhorse printers. Nowadays almost
everything they offer is refurbished rather than end of line.


There may exist, but I'm not aware of a merchant that does so. I knew of
a shop or two that did in this city, but they have disappeared. I heard
of auctions once.


--
Cheers, Carlos.
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Old December 7th 18, 03:20 AM posted to uk.telecom.mobile,comp.mobile.android,uk.telecom.broadband
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On 06/12/2018 18.29, nospam wrote:
In article , NY
wrote:

the industry thinks gigabit is a must have, especially given the amount
of data people are managing and that nvme ssds, usb3 and thunderbolt
are *much* faster.


I would imagine that a lot of users only transfer data between various PCs
and the internet (eg web browsing, sending/receiving emails, streaming
movies from Netflix etc), and don't make much use of PC-to-PC transfers. For
them, the most important thing is WAN speed (router to internet), so 10 Mbps
may be sufficient for some people with ADSL, and 100 Mbps will be sufficient
for most people with FTTC/VDSL.

Those of us who transfer data between PCs and so need 1000 Mbps are either
running a business which has its own server to provide shared access to
files used by multiple PCs, or else have a NAS for serving movies to one or
more computers, tablets, Roku boxes etc.


most people have more than 1 device and *do* transfer between them,
whether it's another computer or a nas or whatever else.


Ha. there you go with your exaggerations.

I know many people that don't even know they can transfer files from
computer to computer without needing to send an email via gmail.

--
Cheers, Carlos.


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